Installation Tips for Floor Heating Cable: Membranes vs. Strips

Hello Thank you so much for joining us today and bearing with us during our technical problems. We are here and we are very excited today to be talking about some installation tips for floor heating cables specifically. So we're going to be going over using membranes versus fixing strips. And my name is Lynn. I am a customer service rep here at Warmly Yours. And I am joined by the wonderful that person couldn't make it. But I'm Scott. Thanks for joining us today. Awesome So if you have any questions on the webinar today, please please feel free to ask. You can do so either in that sidebar chat or at the bottom of the screen. There's an ask a question module that you can click and type your question in there. If we don't see them right away, we'll definitely get to them by the end of the presentation today. So we're going to be going over specifically some of our TempZone® cable products. So exactly what TempZone® cable is and different ways to install it and some of the benefits of each application. We're also going to be going over when to use each application and an installation example showing exactly how someone laid out and installed temps on cable under their floor. And then finally, we'll also be going over a cost comparison for the two methods of install. So temps on a heating cable is basically it's very similar, if not the same to our TempZone® heating mats. It's just the cable itself is in a loose spool and can be run, you know, without having to turn and turn the mat. So it gives you a lot more flexibility when it comes to that actual installation. And these do come in both 120 and 240 volt, and the lengths will range anywhere from 30 to 864 linear feet, which we'll cover a large variety of square footage. Scott, can you kind of tell us about, you know, temps on cable, what you know, what the benefits are for it? Well, it can be used with different kinds of installations, one of them being with the uncoupling membranes. And also it can be used with fixing strips, which is even less expensive. So it offers a lot of flexibility. And also one thing to note here is we get the question all the time is I'm going to be putting this on my 4 is a 240 volt. Do I need to 40 volt for this product? You do not need to. 40 volt to 40 volt isn't any better than 120 volt. And for smaller jobs under 120 square feet. 120 is what you want to use because only uses one space in your breaker panel instead of two spaces like a 240 breaker does. So for most jobs we do. Most jobs are under 120 square feet. So if you get a quote from us, it will be in 120 volt because there's no need for 240 volt. 240 volt isn't any better than 120. The only thing it let you do is our thermostats can handle 15 amps. 15 amps of 120 will cover about 120 square feet. 15 amps of 240 will cover about 240 square feet. So you just get to use the cable for larger spaces. But that's the only benefit. It doesn't get any hotter than 120. Awesome Thank you. So looking at the difference between using an uncoupling membrane like our or fixing strips, so is going to give you a very quick installation. It makes installing those electric cables super easy and super quick while fixing strips are often a little bit more time consuming but are also a lot more economical and will help save on the overall cost of the job. One thing to keep in mind is that Paradiso is designed for tile floors, so if you're doing anything that's not a tile floor, you'll probably want to steer clear for ISO and use fixing strips for that kind of application. Right there are competitors out there. The only way that they can sell their product is to sell you a membrane to put it into. So every job requires it for them. But for us, it doesn't. Because we know that there are a lot of jobs where you're going to be hitting LV t if you're hitting LV t, you want to take this cable, use the fixing strips, and then cover it with self-leveling cement about a half an inch or 3/8 of an inch of self-leveling. So there's no need for Paradiso. So the thing to think about is if you're doing tile and you have a floor that isn't quite structurally 100%, then you'll want to use pedestal because it'll keep your Grout lines and your tiles from cracking. If you install it correctly for every other job you don't need. So if you're going to be making a heated subfloor for a hardwood floor, if you're going to be doing LV t, you don't care if there are a little tiny cracks in the floor because no one's ever going to see them. The LV t is going to cover them. So you don't have to worry about LVE. It's not going to crack and neither is the wood. So that's why you don't need an uncoupling membrane for every single job. And you can save a lot of money by not using that. We're going to be doing a cost comparison here in a little bit that'll show you that. Absolutely it's a great product, but if it's not necessary, know, just at that point, you're just kind of throwing money down. All right. So the cable spacing flexibility is one of the best, I think parts of our using a loose cable. So instead of having it just kind of already 3 inch spacing like you get with the heat mats, this is going to let you actually space out your cable depending on the heat output that you need and the coverage you're looking for. So Scott, can you kind of go over, you know, kind of the difference or the benefits of wider or closer spacing? Well, wider spacing. No two no, two floors are exactly the same. If you have a gigantic three season room that has a vaulted ceilings, it has skylights, that has a fireplace, that also is you've got three exterior walls that are all glass. That room has tons and tons of heat loss. You compare that room with a room that is like in a three story house, a bathroom that's in the middle floor with a heated area above it, heated area below it, and no exterior walls. That room is going to have very little heat loss. In fact, the floor is going to probably start already at 70 degrees. So those two spaces don't need the same sort of heating. They don't need the same watts per square foot. So an area where it's going to be naturally cold with a bunch of Windows and a lot of heat loss, that's where you want to do 3 inch spacing for rooms that are going to be upstairs with no exterior walls, no windows, nothing like that. You don't need that many watts per square foot and you can spread the cable out. So if you look there, 5 inch spacing is the maximum that is even shown. And a lot of times we don't even recommend 5 inch spacing because what can happen is when you start getting the wires too far apart, you start getting non-healing sections between them because the heat only travels laterally from the wire about an inch and a half. So an inch and a half this way in an inch and a half. The other direction. So now you're going to have a gap in an area that is not going to be receiving that heat when you're doing 5 inch spacing. So that's what we call striping. So you don't want a space to wire so far apart that it feels warm, cold, warm, cold as you walk across it, because that's absolutely what you don't want. But what you can do here is just to keep it simple with a 30 foot cable, if you do 3 inch spacing, you can do about 7 and 1/2 square feet. If you stretch that out to 5 inch spacing, you get to cover 12 and 1/2 square feet. So that's a lot of extra space that you can heat. Now, keep in mind, it may be striping on the one extreme and it may be more watch per square foot than you need. But it's always, if you have a little too many square watts per square foot than it is to always be lacking because then you can never turn it up. It's better to have a little bit more. So you can see there it's all about coverage and it's all about making sure the floor is warm in different types of rooms. Awesome yeah, that's fabulous. And I think it's I really like the idea of looking at the percentage increase. So the 3 inch spacing, the 5 inch spacing, 67% increase, but you're probably getting about 60% of the heating you would be getting. So it's something to consider. Right and that's also something we can always help decide too. If you aren't sure what your spacing should be, let us know. I will help you figure that out using a few different methods. So using cable with Progreso is really going to be a great way to add some extra support to tile floors and a little bit of extra waterproofing as well. So it's great for bathrooms. So is the original patented product that really pairs electric for heating cable with that uncoupling membrane? And then so basically there are you can see here little grooves in between the studs of the protest so that are going to allow the cable to snap into place. Scott, can you kind of tell us. I know you've worked with this quite a bit, you know, directly. Can you tell us a little bit about and the method of installation? Yeah you're going to want to get a rubber Grout float or something like that to help you push the cable down into those ridges there, because your fingers in your thumbs are going to get very sore if you're doing a large space. So a rubber Grout float does great to help push that down into those Rows there. So that's just a little bit of a word of wisdom there. But the good thing is, if you're used to installing our heating product, that's our TempZone rolls. This is a different beast. It installs differently. It also lets you change the spacing where our temps on rolls are stuck at 3 inch spacing automatically. You just roll it out and coverage. It's a really fast installation, but this lets you do different spacing. So that's the main thing with this. And it also gives you all the added benefits that we're going to be talking about here. Absolutely so some of the benefits are that it's going to protect the cable from moisture sensitive surfaces. So it also adds a bit of waterproofing. The back of is waterproof, isn't that correct? Scott it's actually at the top. The bottom is a mesh is a non-woven mesh that grabs into the thinset below it. The top is your polypropylene type product that is waterproof from the top. So the vapor management part is that mesh underneath it lets it lets the vapor come into the hockey pucks and it lets it dissipate it that way. So that's where you're thinking of that, that vapor management part. So yeah, it also it what it does is if you've ever looked at tile floors in early Roman times, those tile floors, if you look at them now, they're all in almost perfect shape considering their thousands and thousands of years old. And the way they did that is that they did not attach the tile directly to the subfloor. They put sand over the subfloor and then attach the tiles predominantly to that sand and to each other. And as the subfloor moved, you know, when Mount Vesuvius went off, I'm sure that the tile floors around it were still in pretty good shape because as the Earth moved underneath that tile, the tile was still suspended above it and rolling back and forth on that sand. So that's what has happened with those early Roman forces. They had that uncoupling built in. So it took a while for the tile community in the new world, just like it is, whatever's old is new again. They said, hey, we need to uncouple our tiles from the subfloor because then they won't crack and they won't break and they won't deform and de laminate and sound hollow like they have. So they said, I've got this great idea that's thousands of years old. Let's try that. And that's exactly what's going on here. It's uncoupling the tile from the movement of the subfloor below it and also giving you the waterproof like this is a perfect system to do a waterproof bathroom with. If you're doing an install where you're using a Kerberos shower, Kerberos showers, if that drain ever fills up and it backs up and then it comes into the bathroom with the best thing to do is use Prudential throughout the entire space and make that whole room waterproof. And we're going to show you how to do that in a little bit. Absolutely so there are definitely times that Cardozo is not recommended because all floors really don't require a non coupling membrane like you touched on earlier. Scott there are some companies that want to have the membrane underneath pretty much any flooring and we found that doesn't tend to be necessary for, you know, adding that extra expense when it isn't actually going to be of huge benefit to your room, one room or one type of flooring, rather, that you would not want to use Professor with is if you're using small mosaic like tile. So you want to make sure that any tile you're using with Paradiso is going to be at least 2 inches by 2 inches. You'll also want to be looking at the size of the room smaller areas, smaller rooms, places that, you know, you don't necessarily need to waterproof would be a lot better suited to using fixing strips so that you don't have that extra cost of the protest. So and then also, if you're doing any kind of algae to your wood like you touched on earlier, Scott, you're essentially building a heated subfloor. And so a protocell membrane isn't going to be necessary for that, right? And you're definitely not going to be using self-leveling you don't want to use unless you absolutely have to with this product. So those are the kind of things that you want to make sure that to produce is not recommended for that. And also, sometimes people want it when you're doing natural stone, when you're doing a natural stone in a bathroom. The four gesso installation manual still says that you have to use at least two layers of plywood. You can't get away with one layer of plywood. And so it has to be two layers of plywood. And that's at all of the rules of the Paradiso installation or in the installation manual. And the installation manual is not very long. It's very succinct. It's very to the point it tells you if you have this subfloor, you need to use this then set. And if you're using this tile, you need to do two layers of, of, of plywood as opposed to one. And so, so there's a lot of different situations. You just need to let us know what the subfloor is and what the flooring you're going to use. And it will let you know what goes in the middle. The last job that I went to that they were using, wanted to use for is in a bathroom that had been tiled. This house is 40 years old and this bathroom, so the Joyce were really only about 8 to 10 inches apart. So that floor was very, very, very solid. It wasn't going anywhere as opposed to the other spacing in the rest of the house at 16 inches or 24, whatever they were using. So the closer your Joyce star together, the more solid that floor is going to be. So if you have joists that are 8 inches apart, 10 inches apart, you're not going to have much flex in that floor and you're probably not going to need for decimals. So those are the kind of things you want to look forward to. Absolutely so using cable with fixing strips is really the original way to install electric floor heating cable. So these are like little basically plastic strips that are going to come in one foot increments. And they have can actually see in that picture very well, basically some what would you call it, not grooves, but little pieces that are going to hold the cable in place. So, Scott, I know you've again worked with these quite a bit. Can you kind of tell us the process of using cable with fixing strips? Yeah what you do is you're putting the fixing strips along the perimeter of the room and they're running the cable back and forth between them. So that's simply going to be holding the cable in place. And if you can see there, each one of those little knobs is an inch on center. So if you can see with this picture, all these wires are spaced at 3 inches. So it's very, very simple way to keep your spacing done and to keep it correct. And once you get that product laid out on the floor, you then take some masking tape, some real cheap masking tape, because the masking tape only has to last as long as the self-leveling works. And that is if you're going to cover this with self-leveling, you're going to put a masking tape run every couple of feet across this picture. So down two or three feet, you're going to put in a run and over here you're going to put a run and you're going to run it across there because that's going to keep the cable from trying to go to the top of self-leveling. Self-leveling is very, very dense. Whatever it covers wants to float to the top. And that is the same with these cables. If you don't hold these cables down with tape, you are going to have. A cable that's sitting above the top of your self-leveling, and then you're going to have to do it all over again, put another layer over the top. So these things are very, very good. They help you space it correctly. And that's what helps you get these odd sections covered. You cut them into different pieces. And you do different spacing. And we're going to see that on a plane coming up here in a little bit. Absolutely so some of the benefits of using fixing strips with the cable is that again, you can use it to install rigid flooring. So tile or something that's a little bit more flexible like LV ti. So it is very, you know, it pretty much will go with anything that you're using. Again, make sure that you're talking to us. If you're picking you know, if you're debating between what floors you want to put down or the benefits of different types of flooring, you know, always help you pick out the best flooring type and system for your space. But one of the other really big benefits is, like you had mentioned, that flexibility and that liberty to kind of get into those harder to reach areas actually be able to kind of freeform the cable where you want it specifically. Really great for rooms that have odd angles or curves in the walls. It's going to give you a lot more coverage than you can get with either protocell or with the actual heating mats themselves. What's great about this picture is if you're doing a progressive install, you're going to be putting the protest. So under this entire area. And then sitting everything on top of it and then heating the space in front of it. So if you're. If you're taking a room, you're going to put protest on 100% of that room area and then heat about 80% So if you want to save money, you can eliminate that 100% coverage of protests. I would just go to the strips. So that's where you can save a lot of money using the fixing strips to do that coverage for you. Absolutely so there are definitely, definitely times that we're fixing strips aren't recommended. If you have a subfloor and flooring type that's going to be going down, that needs uncoupling, you're going to obviously be wanting to use an uncoupling membrane and you're also going to probably want to use the protest. So when you're looking for some kind of waterproof installation like you were touched on earlier, what a wet room, a shower or something like that. Fixing strips are also a little bit more time consuming to install. So if time is, you know, a high priority, you want to just get this done. Sometimes using process or even using our cut and turn mats will be a quicker option. So looking at the actual installation of temps on cable with Paradiso. So we have a really good cross-section here that you can see the actual step by step of the sand which that makes up that heated floor. So, Scott, can you kind of walk us through the different layers? Yeah we're going to ask you what your subfloor is, because that's going to tell us what type of thinset we're going to use to attach the product. So down to that subflow. So some sub floors require modified things that some flooring sub floors require non modified than set. So you would have to tell us that and then you would need to make sure you got the correct amount. The Prudential uncoupling membrane then gets pushed down into that layer. And then you put the cable down in it and then you use the correct type of thinset mortar as required by your tile. So if your tile requires a modified thinset set, it's OK to use modified, then set over Prudential. Other companies don't let you do that. So it has that flexibility of being able to use modified thinset over the membrane and the cable to allow you to use lefty mortar, mortar if you have large format tiles and certain left has to be, you know, a certain type. It has to be modified in certain times. So that's the benefit of this product, is it lets you use different kinds of things that over the top of it to set your tile correctly. So that's why you need to say what you know, tell us what's above and what's below, and then we can tell you to use the correct products for that. And we'll give you a protest installation plan so you can actually make sure that you are laying out your protest. So exactly you know how you need to get the coverage you're looking for. So we touched on this earlier. Protester does cover the entire floor. Even if the heating cable won't, it will cause a slight height difference in the floor. So you want to make sure that it's throughout the entire space and you'll also want to make sure that the studs are aligning properly. So as you are laying this out, as you're, you know, cutting it and lining it up, make sure that the studs are in line so that you don't have, you know, wiggles or any kind of weird Z shaped heating patterns in the floor. Yeah if you don't line up like, here's the bottom. If you don't line up those studs, you're not going to get the wire to travel from one to the other. So that's how you're able to do it. Look, if you look at this drawing, this is the job that I did is you can see here is a piece, there's a seam, then there's one to 3 smaller pieces, then there's another piece in the shower. So each one of these spaces has to have a seam cover to make it waterproof. And that's where we're going to be using the proband to cover those seams and make them waterproof. The thing is, you can't do that until you get the wire put in. So let's go ahead and take a look at this installation plan. Yeah so can you kind of walk us through what we're looking at here and how it gets laid out? So there are two cables in this install. There's a cable here for the bathroom and there's a cable here for this Kerberos shower. The main word here is Kerberos. Here's the drain. If the strain ever backs up, that water is going to come out into the floor and then go to whatever's below it. Well, the secret is to make this like a giant Bowl. And we have bands that let you do a seam between the floor and the wall and also on that floor and the wall. Let's go back here and take a look at these corners, because these are also pre-formed corners here. So here's an inside corner. Inside, inside, inside, inside, inside. And this is a recording. And then these are the ones that are exterior. Corners or outside corners. So this is inside, you can see and this is outside and those are pre-formed. So you don't have to try to figure out how to make it yourself. So that makes a waterproof seal all the way around the walls, in the corners. And that's what keeps the water in the bathroom and not going to what's below it. So you definitely want to watch out for that. A friend of mine has a shower and they're drained, backed up, and their bathroom is right above their living room. So guess where all that water went? It went into the ceiling of the living room. So that's where you want to do if you ever want to do a waterproof bathroom, that's how we do that. And that's how you heat it. So if you take a look at this installation plan, we'll talk about the installation plan now and get it over with that. There are some red dots here and those red dots are that the halfway mark on the cable. So you know that there as you're working, there will be a white dot on the cable at the halfway mark. So if your cable's 30 feet long, there's going to be a white dot at 15 feet. And that's how you can tell if you're using too much or too little cable. If your red dot is all the way back here after your first couple runs, it means you're using too much cable, which means you're probably getting the spacing closer together than what they want it to be. So if you take a look here, it says each run spaced at 3.75 inches. Very, very important to notice that. Also, there are two cables in here, one for the shower, one for the rest of the room. Shower floors tend to be thicker, especially with the old timers. You want to do a mud pack? We've moved past that here, but if you want to do a mud pack shower, you can have 1 to 3 inches of a mud pack. And that is obviously the thicker the mud pack, the more thermal mass you have to heat. More thermal mass means it. It's going to be cooler and it takes longer to heat. So that way you're going to have a shower that is not going to be as warm as a bathroom because the bathroom is only in about 3/8 of an inch, a thinset. The thinner will heat faster. So you may want to put this on a separate thermostat to make sure it's hotter and it gets at a different temperature sooner than the rest of the floor because this will heat slower than the rest of the floor. Also, somebody ever goes into work on this floor and they hit the wire with the drain. It happens. That means that just the shower isn't working, but the rest of the floor is. That's the main driver when it comes to two separate cables. You can do this all in one cable if you wanted to. But if somebody comes in here to put a new drain in it and they get too crazy and they break the wire, the whole room is down. And then we will have to make that repair and get it to work again. So you can see where each roll starts. Here is a triangle pointing to the beginning, mark. Here's a triangle pointing to the beginning, mark. And here's the square that shows the end. And here's the square that shows the end. And the thermostat is right here. So these non heating leads are long enough to get from this shower around the back wall and up to this thermostat, just like they are here at the beginning. It goes across the doorway and goes to the thermostat there. So when you're giving us a plan, always show us where the thermostat, where you want the thermostat to go, because that'll determine the way the product is laid out. If you put the thermostat over here, that means the non heating lead has to go this direction here and this start point has to start here. So there are important things that we learn from where your thermostat is going to be mounted. Awesome did I. Did I miss anything on the install plan? We want everybody. We want everybody to get one of these. Because if you're especially if that's your first job, don't try to figure it out yourself. Just give us the dimensions of the space. And our engineers will give you a plan that looks just like this. It'll also tell you what average breakers you need, how many breakers you need, what the wattage of the product is. All that stuff is included for free. Absolutely yes, definitely. And we can get it turned around very quickly. So even if you're in a hurry, we can normally get this out to you within about a day. So looking at the actual installation and Waterproofing with Paradiso, follow that layout plan. Like you said, Scott, make sure that you are getting a smart plan and that you are following it. And if there are any questions or you want things changed, let us know so that we can help you. You know, we want to make sure that you're going into this really confident. And that's going to be a really easy install. Like you said, Scott, using a rubber Grout float to make sure that you're not damaging your fingers and making sure that you are able to waterproof it completely with your shower or wet room by using the proband accessories that we offer as well. Yeah, if you take a look at this picture, it's great because it shows the proband being put across the scene from two different mats, from two different cuts of the ISO. So it also shows the tape going, the proband around the edge of the wall where it covers the floor and it also covers the wall, making that like the ball that we talked about, a whole waterproof barrier. But you can't put these in until you get the cables and you can see the cable in here. And the cable has to be able to go from this section over to this section. You can't put the waterproofing down first, then get the cable to go free. You don't do that. You put the cable in and then waterproof it. What a lot of people don't think of Vincent as since it is an adhesive, it's like a natural glue, and it does it by mysterious ways. If you ever want to learn something about thin set, that's really interesting to see how it actually grows tentacles and grabs into stuff. And that's what holds it all together. And it's really, really cool, but that's how it holds it all together. It's really just an adhesive. So we're using thinset to adhere the proband to deeper gesso, and we're using the thinset to adhere the proband to the wall and we're then using the thinset to adhere the tile to the top of the desk. So, so thinset is simply an adhesive in its most basic meaning. Wonderful so when you're installing the tile over The process, so again, you want to make sure that you are using at least a 2 inch by 2 inch tile and you'll want to be starting and completing some small sections at a time instead of attempting to do the entire space in one go. Yeah beginners, people that are not necessarily beginners with people that have not used a Prudential endomembrane system. And there always have been used to using our roles are temps on roles where you cut in turn the mesh and you make it feel that space. What they have done in the old. Currently with our temps of flex rolls is they attach the flex role to the subfloor and then they just then sat over the whole thing and they let it a skim coat, you know, like a quarter of an inch. Then they come back the next day and start putting tile over the top. This system is not like that. The people that have gone from the temps on roll and they went to this job and they did read the installation manual is they got themselves in trouble because they've put the cable down in the Prudential. And then what they did by mistake is they took and covered the entire area within set. Then they came back the next day and all those little there's a little tiny top in that hockey puck that's kind of recessed, shaped like a cone and all the things that in those cones were popping out because you're not supposed to install it that way. You cover just enough Paradiso to set the tile in it. Then you move over to the next one. You can one or two spaces, put the thinset down back, butter the tile, push it down and then put, then set on the desk. So back but with the tile pushed the tile back down. That's the way you're supposed to do it. That way. If you're halfway done during the day and your day ends, you can only do half of the floor. Half the floor should have tile over the top and then set and the other half should be bare. That's what it should look like when you're halfway done. So that's one thing that beginners who have used temps own rolls in the past. That's the big disconnect when it comes from this product to the other. That's it. Just a fair bit of Warning. Yeah, that's really good to keep in mind. I think really what you could just say is make sure that you're reading the manual as closely as possible to start and call us. If you don't know the answer, call us as they. Absolutely we're always happy to help. So this is an example of the actual cable with the fixing strips. So again, we have a cross section really showing the steps are the layers for this, starting with priming the subfloor since this will be going if it's a wood subfloor generally directly on it and then it's got can you kind of take us through, you know, the different steps and why self-leveling is important? What people don't realize this is on the side of the bag of your self-leveling it'll see if primer is required. 99 times out of 100 it is. And on the side of the bag. It'll tell you a couple of things. It'll tell you what primer you need to use, and it will also tell you how long it takes for that self-leveling to cure. Because that's what you're going to be looking for, because you don't want to turn on the heat until the self-leveling and the thinset has cured, which means you're not going to be turning it on the next day, especially if the thinset that you're using to set the tiles says it's got a cure time of 14 days or 28 days. That means that you're not turning the system on for 14 days or 28 days, because you don't want to heat that product that isn't cured yet. So you always want to get the primer on the floor subfloor first. Then you would hear the fixing strips. And also the cable then roots back and forth. Here we can see we have our masking tape. That's what's going to hold it down to the subfloor. And you're going to be pulling self-leveling cement over the top. Then you put the tile, you set the tile like you normally would, or if you're doing a floating wood installation, you just simply place the wood down on top of the self-leveling cement. So one thing I didn't mention that I wanted to show on that plane I knew I had forgotten something is if you look here, the plan before it, whereas here, if you look here, you can see one and a half, one and a quarter, 1 and 1/4. What is that? That's seven three, seven, 7 and 3. I don't know what that is. I can't read it. I believe it's 5 inches. Five inches, Yeah. That's the space from the wall to put this fixing strips. So you can see up here says one and a half, the fixing strips should be put down an inch and a half from the wall. If you move the fixing strips four inches from the wall, you're going to have too much cable because your strings aren't going to be as long if it's supposed to be here and you make it here, you're going to have too much cable. If you're supposed to be here and you put them out here, you're not going to have enough cable. So that's why you have to take notice of where they're telling you to put the fixing strips, inch and a half from this wall, inch and a half from this wall and so forth, so on and so forth. That's what's so important about using the fixing strips, because that's going to tell you, do I put it here or do I put them here? So that's very important. I'm glad I remember that because some people don't remember that. Absolutely that's a really good thing to keep in mind. So these will run perpendicular to the way that the cable will run. And again, it'll actually show on the smart plan how far from the wall and exactly which direction you'll want your fixing strips, and then you'll want to secure it with using nails, screws, double sided tape, or a very strong adhesive. So different people have different preferences on how they layout the fixing strips. It depends on the subfloor, depends on a lot of different factors. So you can use any of those methods to stick that down to the subfloor. And that's what I cut. But what I like about this picture is that you can see that there are two different well, the fixing strips are attached two different distances from the wall here. Yes that's what they did to make because no one's ever going to stand in that back corner. There's no need to heat that back corner where no one's feet will ever land. So they pulled it away from the wall a little bit. And that allows you to use less cable, but to make sure that the area that you walk on is still heated. So you can see in this picture that there are two different spacings from the wall. With this cable, one's a little bit closer, one's a little bit farther away. That's a really great point. So then from there you begin the self leveling process. So again, making sure that masking tape is holding it down every two to three feet and then you would basically put down your self-leveling as you more or less normally would. Scott, can you kind of give us some tips and tricks on keeping, you know, making the self-leveling work with for heating? You're not going to put self-leveling in the way you're used to doing it. It's self-leveling. You want to make sure you're getting out of the room and not using spikes. Right right. So if you're used to using spiked shoes, putting in self-leveling on your floors, you're not going to be using them here. So you're going to plan the way you're putting your things. You're self-leveling down so you can work in one corner and work your way out the door at the other side of the room. Also, you're not going to be using self-leveling gauge rakes because self-leveling gauge rates are simply metal bars that have pins that are installed that you adjust them up or down to make sure that your thin set, your self-leveling is a 1/4 inch or 3/4 of an inch or whatever that is. You can't use those gauge rates. You have to use a very large squeegee to help move that denser self-leveling around to get it nice and flat. So no spiked shoes, no gauge rates when you're doing this because you will ruin your floor if you do that. So I'm so glad you said that, Lynne, because it made me go ding, ding, ding. Yeah I think what I should have phrased it as is you'll be mixing the self-leveling and kind of doing that. Normally the actual process will be a little bit different. Yeah, we had somebody a couple of months ago who, who went in and said, oh, I'm doing this and use spiked shoes and used the gauge rake and the whole floor was trashed. So you just can't do that. I'm so glad that you brought that up. Me, too. All right. And then looking at the actual price comparison. So we had talked about this earlier. Obviously fixing strips use much less material. So they are going to using a project with fixing strips will usually be quite a bit cheaper than if you're going with. But obviously Progreso has its own benefit, so you'll kind of want to weigh that when deciding which system or which installation method you'll be using. Assuming that we're using the same 50 foot cable for each, the cell endomembrane system is going to cost about 317, where the fixing strips will cost you about 199. So yeah, it makes a big deal, especially if you're doing multiple rooms in a house that can really, really add up. So I always loved these slides because people can see what real world jobs cost. A lot of companies don't want you to know that. They just say, Oh yeah, you need it and don't worry about the cost here. We want to make sure that you get the correct product for the job you need. If you don't need prudential, there's no reason to spend all the money on x extra money on Paradiso. So, I mean, we'd love to keep the lights on here, but really we want our customers to have the right product at the right price, because they tend to appreciate that. So that's what's so great about this. So all right. So we do have a few questions that had been sent in earlier for us. If you have any questions now, feel free to pop in and ask them. We'd be more than happy to answer those for you. We're just getting the questions pulled up here. Yeah, my technical issues have. Made it. So I can't see the questions right now. So it's all yours. Absolutely so one of our first questions is from Virginia. And she wants to know if what the lead time is and what kind of the availability of the product is. And honestly, our lead time, often we can get it shipping out within the same business day. We haven't had a huge issue with availability of product. We do have a lot of our product in stock ready to go. So often the lead time is a day or two before we can get it shipped out. And most of the time if you get it to us early enough in the day, it'll go out that same day. Absolutely so that's one thing to keep in mind. Virginia also asked a question, do you have anything for renters, I.e., temporary mats? And we do not. We're talking about install in the subfloor so we don't have any temporary solutions, Virginia, but Thank you for asking that. Absolutely and then Pedro says, is there a special wiring and Matt for steaming shower floors or benches? And really there isn't. I mean, essentially that's going to be installed the same way that you would in any kind of shower or bench. Yeah our product are the product we're talking about. These cables are wet location approved, which means you can use them in showers, you can use them in steam rooms. So, yes, that's a great solution for these types of rooms and. It looks like George asked the question, is there a way to use the wire for outside steps? And we have snow melting cables and mats that are used outdoors. Temps on products that we're talking about now cannot be used outside. And the outside snow melting products cannot be used inside their all different all listings. So you all says this cable goes here and you all says that cable goes there and they don't mix and match. So yes, we do have a cable that can go outdoors, but it's not this cable. Wonderful and then Pedro also asks, can any of these systems be installed under chronic shower patterns? And you'll know that more than I will. It is the product has to go between the shower pan and the tile. If this is a type of, I don't know, Onyx off the top of my head, but if the Onyx finished surface is what you're standing on. So if you install this Onyx liner and it's what you stand on that no, it can't go under that. But if you're using this liner and then putting tile on top of it, then you can put the heating cable between the liner and the cable. But we don't heat underneath a liner like that, if that's what the question was. Awesome John had asked earlier about radiant heating under light, especially when that's going over a concrete slab. And I know that Michael had just signed in and asked a similar question about using electric radiant heat over a concrete floor concrete slab. So with Albert specifically, you're going to be doing more or less the type of fabrication we went over earlier where you'll lay out your cable and fixing strips on the subfloor, and then you will begin with the self-leveling and then put down your LV t over that flat subfloor surface in your glass. Unless remember, you may be going into the concrete thing, but. But make sure you go into the concrete thing. Yes so if you're going specifically over a concrete floor, but first, you want to make sure that you are getting an insulating underlayment so that the heat will be going over that, not directly on the concrete slab. We offer a synthetic caulk. We call Sarah's orb. That tends to be really good at actually helping the heat rise instead of getting sucked down into that concrete slab. Concrete slabs are your enemy because they will try to pull all the heat Downward instead of letting it go upward. So you would know. I can tell you, there are people who say, you know what, I don't really want the stairs or but I'm sure, Lynn, since you're in the sales department, you get this all the time because people just want to save money, right? They don't want to spend extra money in this way. Do I really need the stairs or. And my response from a technical standpoint is if you want your floor to be in the 70s. Max in the winter time. So it doesn't feel doesn't feel cold. Then you are going to put the cable directly on the slab. If you want your floor to feel warm and get into and above the eighties, literally there's that much difference. Then you want to use Sarah's or between the cable and the sub 4. I've been here almost 15 years. I can't tell you the number of times that people have called in gone. My floor is only getting 72 degrees. And then we asked them is like, well, we did use the stairs or we asked you to use. They said, no, I didn't want to spend the money. Then there's nothing you can do about that. That concrete underneath is pulling all the heat down into the slab until the slab heats up. And then it will begin to release some electricity, some warmth. But that's literally the difference. You want a floor that doesn't feel cold or do you want a floor that's warm? Most people that go to all the time in trouble to put this in want floors that are warm. Not not cold. So hopefully that'll help. Awesome Michael says a quick underlayment and which radiant product above it that will generally depend on the type of flooring you're putting down. Specifically what kind of product you'll be using. Often it'll be a TempZone® system, like we kind of went over earlier. And yes, for porcelain tile, you'll specifically be using TempZone®. Either they'll lose cables or the mats. And if you're doing self-leveling, you're not going to be using cork. You are not going to put cork down on a slab and then cover it with self-leveling. You're going to use Sarah's orb because Sarah's orbit, synthetic cork, it doesn't expand when it gets wet. So that's the problem with natural cork is if you're covering it, it's like pouring thousands of gallons of water on top of the cork. It's going to go like that. So you don't want it to do that. But that's a great question. Pedro asks, is there a shower pan system that would allow you to install the cable directly on it, something like dirty? Well, that's a great question, Pedro, because we have such a system and we have custom sized mats that fit on top of the pan and under the tail. So if you'd like some information about that, we have shower systems with waterproofing membranes with pans that you install the pan on to the subfloor, put the TempZone® heating product on top of it and then cover it with tile. And we have specific sizes that are made specifically with a hole in the middle for the drain to fit into. So that is the shower system. And Thank you, Olivia. Excellent work. Awesome and then the last question we received at least earlier is from D asking can this be used? Underwood as well as ceramic tile? Definitely can. You want to? Obviously, there are some stipulations when working with wood in terms of how you do the installation, exactly what the type of wood is and all that good stuff. There are some considerations to make when picking a wood floor and planning to heat underneath it. So I'd recommend reaching out to us just to kind of chat about that so we can make sure we're getting you the right product. Yeah, if you're doing nail down hardwood, then what you're doing is you're using this exact picture that we show here, except you're putting wood sleepers in between here for the nails to go from the wood into the sleepers. So what you have is you have wooden pieces of wood that go here. And here to nail into and then you put thinset as you put self-leveling between those sleepers. So it's all one single height. And that way, when you nail the weight down, it'll also be resting on the self-leveling in between the two pieces of wood. I did a job like that, and that job has worked fantastic for the last five or six years and they are extremely happy with it because it's a two story living room. And the living room was always cold at the floor and hot upstairs this way it's heat all the way through the entire room. And we, we got those sleepers put in, put the self-leveling in nice and flat and the wood floor is nice and toasty in the wintertime. So great question. Awesome All right. Any other questions? I'm not saying anything just yet. And Olivia, you said you checked Facebook. There weren't any questions there. And if you ever do have other questions, obviously feel free to reach out. Michaels as we do a floating wood floor over radiant. Scott, can you kind of touch on that specifically with floating? You'd want to use a bit of a different product with the floating installation is the easiest installation that we offer because it's simply you put down Sarah's orb on the subfloor. You lay our os.environ product, which is a product that doesn't need self-leveling, it doesn't need then set. And then you put the floating engineered wood or the floating laminate on top of it. So it's all one big floating installation and you have a nice heated floor that's very, very easy to install. Very quick, no thin set, no self-leveling. However, it's not for LV all. It needs to use self-leveling to keep it flat, to keep the wire spaced away from the light as the manufacturers require it to be. So yes, floating engineered wood can go over our os.environ product. Maybe Olivia we can send him some information on os.environ and floating force. That would be fantastic. Thank you, Michael, for asking that. Yes, Thank you. I think Michael's going for the MVP of the whole webinar here. Good job, Michael. He says there is a rib has to go under a floating floor. Yes you never, ever install os.environ between a hard subfloor and a hard wood above it, because after time it'll upbraid through the system and it needs to have a soft spot underneath it. That way you can lay the engineered wood on top of it. Plus, the series orb makes the heat go up as opposed to letting it go into the subfloor below. So it accomplishes two things. It os.environ is what we're going to be sending you information on Olivia if you can. Michael she'll be sending you information on our os.environ system. It's a floating heating system. So very, very good questions. Awesome So our next webinar is going to be choosing the right electric for heating for your subfloor. We had a lot of questions on, you know, based on the type of four people are going over what the best installation method is or what the best product will be. So we're going to be touching on that in a lot more detail on Thursday, March 9th, at 1:00 in the afternoon, central time, again right here on crowdcast and also on crowdcast. We do daily trainings. These are usually about ten, 15 minutes, so they're pretty brief and we'll actually be talking about different topics. If you have questions though, on other topics, feel free to pop in and chat often. These are hosted by me, hosted by Scott, so feel free to join us for those. And for the month of February, we are offering 25% off select towel warmers. So be sure to visit our website for some information on that promotion. Once this webinar is over, you'll receive an email asking about your experience. If you are able to fill that out, we would really appreciate it. We want all your comments and suggestions because we want to make sure that we're talking about things that you want to hear and things that you're curious about. Otherwise, we're just kind of talking into cyberspace. Right, exactly. It's much, much more interesting if we talk about something you're interested in originally and if you have questions, if you need assistance in any way, obviously feel free to reach out. So give us a call. You can email us. You can visit our website or our social media pages. So there is a lot of WarmlyYours information out there. Feel free to browse that website and to reach out when you need any assistance or would like a quote started. So that is all that we have for today. Unless there's anything you needed to add, Scott. That's it for me. Awesome well, Thank you so much for joining us, everybody. And until next time, as always, stay warm and be radiant. By everybody.