How to Heat New Wood Floors

WarmlyYoursHello, thank you so much for joining us for today's webinar. My name is Lynn. I am a customer service representative here at warm letters and today I am joined by. My name is Scott. I'm from WarmlyYours to the technical department. Hello, everybody. Awesome thank you so much for joining us today. We're going to be talking about heating new wood floors. If you have any questions during today's presentation, please feel free to ask away. You can do so on either the sidebar chat or in the bottom of the screen. There's an Ask a question module that you can type your question into as well. If we don't get to it right away, we'll definitely address all questions by the end of the presentation. So like I said, we're going to be going over heating wood floors. We're going to also be going over just some information on a hardwood flooring and how actually heating that works. We're going to be going over also heating underneath a floating floor as well as some really important post installation care tips. So obviously, hardwood floors are very popular, they continue to be a very popular kind of luxurious flooring type and with the proper care, they really can last for a very, very long time. So when you're investing in adding some electric heat beneath those wood floors, it's going to add another level of comfort of I think I use the word luxury earlier, but that's why I always think about with a nice, warm, heated floors, nice wood floors that are beautiful and warm. It's kind of a nice win win, and it also works really, really well for those that suffer from allergies as going to help reduce that kind of pollution, dust, pollen floating around the house from the forced air. It's going to be a little bit of a cleaner type of heat, and we always, always recommend specifically for wood that you're following all guidelines about relative humidity and we're going to be getting into that in just a moment. So, Scott, can you tell us about the difference between electric and hydronic heating systems? Well, electric systems don't have this phalanx of items in this picture. There's not a zillion things that you have to worry about doing maintenance on. You can see that there are hoses, you can see that there are pumps, you can see that there are valves and pipes and water supplies and that sort of thing that you have to worry about when you're doing hot water. Also, we talked about uniform heating. The electric met at the beginning of the mat or the cable is the same temperature as it is at the end. So when electricity hits it, the entire thing warms up with hot water. It comes in the doorway or wherever. The entry point is, it comes in really hot. Then, as it works its way through the room, it exits really much cooler. So you're having two different temperatures actually in the floor at the same time. And if it runs into one room at one end and runs out at the other end, the side where the hot water enters is always going to be much warmer than the exit spot. So the problem is there, you now have a wood floor that's hot on one side and cooler on the other. So that's another major thing that is a benefit of electric over hot water. And sometimes when you're doing a remodel type thing, you don't have to worry about raising the floor height that much hydrant. It can add a couple 2 or 3 inches to the floor height in that particular space. Plus you have to get hot water piped over to that room. So it's really not an issue with electric. So electric is great when you're doing a remodel and you can get that heat in there. Another thing that hydronic heating does is it overshoots and undershoot. So what it does is if you say, hey, I want this floor to be 82 degrees, well, what happens is the water from the boiler is hot, so it comes in at 84. Then it cools off and it goes to 80 two, then it goes to 80 four, then it goes to 81. That's overshooting and undershooting and with electric heat because there's no motor turning on and off and no hot water coming in and then stopping. It's one continuous level of heat and that's controlled by a thermostat, and the thermostat will keep that floor temperature within a degree. So there's no overshooting and undershooting with electric heat. It's whatever you set it for, it'll stay there. So those are pretty big differences in the two types of flooring. And that's why electric is so much better for hardwood than hardwood than hot water is awesome. Yeah, definitely something to consider it. And I'll think a lot of people often think about, you know, specifically for different types of flooring. Types of heating might be better. So looking at electric floor heating specifically for wood floors, we do offer a few different types of electric heating products here, and we usually recommend 10 stone products for almost any flooring type when you embed that temp zone in South leveling cement. We also have environ, which is designed for floating floors, so if you're going to be putting down laminate or an engineered wood, a floating wood, something like that, environ tends to be the best option for you. You want to make sure that you are not installing anywhere that's going to trap that heat. So you don't want underneath furniture that's very low lying or has poor ventilation or underneath a space that has an area rug, heavy dog beds, things like that. You want to be sure you're heating around and not underneath. Yeah, it's not so much with dog beds. The weight, though the problem with dogs. Dog beds are usually insulating, which means they're trapping heat between the dog bed and the heating cable that's underneath. So what you want to do is you want to keep any item off of that floor that's going to trap heat beanbags chairs. Those are notorious for doing that. Also, you wouldn't want to put one of those over the spot where your thermostat sensor is because that area will be hot and then the rest of the floor will be cold because the thermostat thinks that the floor is really warm, so you have to watch out for that. So we talk to people all the time about these types of installations. And one thing you want to keep in mind is you don't want to be trapping any of that heat. You're generating so boxed bottom beds, box bottom couches, anything with a flat bottom that rests directly on the floor is going to trap heat. You do not want that. We've had calls from people that say, I've had this beanbag chair for 15 years on my hardwood floor here and we lifted it up and it's darker there than it is in the rest of the floor. That's because that area has trapped heat and it has been stuck there forever. So you have to watch out for that sort of stuff. You want the air, the heat that you're making, you want it to get into the room. You don't want it trapped under the. Floor so if we take a look at the two items here at the top of the two pictures here at the top. Those items need to be embedded, so they're either going to go in thinset or normally with hardwood, they're going to go in self leveling underlayment, the item at the bottom, the environment flex roll. It doesn't attach to anything and nothing attaches to it, and it does not get covered in anything, meaning it does not get embedded. So it's a purely floating type of installation, and that's what we recommend for laminate also for carpeting in the USA. So keep in mind, those are the two big differences between the products you see here. The two at the top need to be embedded and they must be embedded and the item at the bottom. The environment flex role is not embedded. It simply floats. Cool So looking at, we kind of talked about how we'll be mentioning relative humidity. Scott, you know, a lot about this and especially how it kind of works with floor heating. Can you kind of tell us what to consider when it comes to relative humidity? It's the thing that people never think about. That's why it's so important because people go, I'm going to put this hardwood floor in, I'm going to put heat under it. And then they call in the middle of the winter and say, well, my wood floors, it's got gaps in it. The first question is, is, is was is the heat turned on or not? The question is, what's the relative humidity in that room? In the summertime, they'll call and say, well, my flooring is cupping. It's kind of buckling up a little bit. What causes that? Buckling up is caused by too much relative humidity, and the board's gapping from one another is too little humidity. It has nothing to do with the heat. I don't have. I have a laminate floor in my hallway, in my home, and it does not have floor heat under it. But in the summertime it buckles a little bit and in the wintertime it gaps a little bit and there's no heat under it. Those things are driven by the relative humidity. So if you're putting in a floor that's going to be wood or hardwood or engineered wood or something like that, you need to make sure that you provide humidification in the winter and you provide dehumidification in the summer. So you need to make plans for that and you need to ask the manufacturer of the wood that you're buying. What does my relative humidity have to be between? We use a number 38 and 42. Sometimes it's even as more and more generous. Sometimes manufacturers say between 30% and 50% Normally, when you talk to somebody who's Florida's gapping, they'll put a relative. They'll put a high grade emitter in this room, and that's what this thing is on the screen. And they'll go and go, oh, well, my, my reading is about 20% Well, that's the reason why your floor is gapping is because it's so dry in there. So that's the kind of thing you want. You often don't think about, but relative humidity is really the most important thing to plan for and plan around when you're doing floor heating, that is going to be going under would. Yes, that's definitely something to consider, and like we said, a lot of people don't consider it, so it's definitely something you want to be talking with your manufacturer about and really planning ahead for it. So looking at the actual material conditioning of the flooring you'll be putting down, you want to make sure that the floor will be acclimated to the room, you're going to install in. And every manufacturer has different recommendations for their product on how to do this, different recommended times to acclimate and things like that. So you want to make sure that you're keeping track of the moisture content of the floor to know when it's actually ready to install with that floor heating product beneath it? Yeah, I've done a tour of a couple of flooring manufacturers and one of them, if you look at it from the flooring manufacturer's point of view, it's very difficult for them to get a product into your home in good condition because what they do is they obviously dry it to a specific temperature of moisture content when they are finishing it up and when they're manufacturing it. And then what one of the companies has done is they've gone into heat, shrink the entire pallet that this wood is on because what they're trying to do is they're trying to maintain the humidity level while it's being shipped to the end user. That's something that no one ever thinks about. Well, my the wood is manufactured. It got put on a truck, right? And that truck is taking it to wherever it goes, and then it sits at the store and then after a while, it sits at the store, then it gets delivered to you. Well, the manufacturers really lose track of it as soon as they put it in that truck. So how long does it sit on the truck? How long does it sit-in the store? Is it the wintertime or is it the fall? Are you in Maine or are you in the deep south? Are you in North dakota? Some places are naturally drier. Some places are naturally more humid. And that's what manufacturers have to deal with. So that's why they want you to get it into your house and let it acclimate. That's why they say that because of the trucks, because of the storage, because of the store, because of the time of the year. They want it in your house and they want it to become normalized or acclimated to your house. So it doesn't immediately, as soon as you put it in shrink or expand, because that's what they need to do and that's what they're working on. So they are trying to control that moisture content as much as they can, but it gets to the point where it gets taken out of the pellet, then what happens to it or they open a bag and you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff going on there. That's why. Acclimating it, there's the word acclimating it to your home is so important that people don't really think about it sometimes, but that's why. Yes, definitely, definitely something to be considering when you're really beginning planning that process. So also, you'll want to begin by preparing your subfloor again, according to manufacturer recommendations. You want to make sure you're checking the moisture level of the subfloor before installing the wood flooring. You also want to make sure that it's very clean and rst. Make sure that it is level. Is there anything else, Scott, specifically that you think should be mentioned for yourself for preparation? You just need to make sure it's clean, and if you're doing self leveling, you need to make sure that you plug all the holes. Sometimes people drill a hole in it to run a cable up through it, you know, they kind of cheat instead of going through the wall. They'll drill a hole through the floor, and self leveling will try to get to the lowest possible point it can. And that means it'll go down into the room below if you don't plug the hole right here in this picture. I love this picture because if you look at the bottom of the picture right in the middle, you can see a piece of tape there. Well, you know what? That piece of tape is, they're doing. It's plugging a hole that was in the middle of that room. Also, what we did is if you look really carefully around the perimeter of that room around the baseboard, you can see there's a white little layer there and that's caulk where we've talked the perimeter of the room. So the self leveling doesn't go down into the wall and that would create quite a mess. So that's what you're going to look out for. A lot of these embedding a lot of this product that gets embedded is going to be embedded in self leveling, so you need to make sure that you get that floor ready for the self leveling. Cool So looking at installing under hardwood like we were kind of mentioning earlier, you want to be using our temp St product, whether that be our timezone cable or our temps own flex role really comes down to what kind of flooring or what kind of installation you're going to be doing with that hardwood. So if you're going to be installing a nailed hardwood, you'll want to use our timezone cable and run it in between some sleepers, which we're going to get into all that in just a bit here. And then if you're going to be putting down self leveling and doing a glue down installation, then temps on flex roll tends to be the best product, right? Because it's fast or you just roll it out, do a cut in turn. You never, ever cut the wire. You never, ever cut the heating cable. You, if you're doing any cuts in turns with the temp Sony flex roll, you're actually cutting the mesh. Never, ever cutting the heating cable. And never, ever shortening the heating cable. So, Scott, can you kind of tell us the difference between engineered and solid hardwood? Well, if we were flooring manufacturers, we could sit here and do a four hour presentation on wood because you can get buried in minutia when it comes to wood. And I'm not going to pretend to be a wood expert. I'm a heating floor heating expert, but I don't work in a mill that manufactures this product. There are some generalities that we can discuss, but out of all the minutia that we could go into and all the generalities that we could speak to, the main thing you need to do is you need to ask the manufacturer that you're interested in buying it from if it's rated for a radiant heat and ask them, what product do you have that is rated for radiant heat? Because then you don't need to know the species, then you don't need to know tangential expansion rates. You don't need to do need to know all this, this mind boggling minutia. They will tell you this is it. This is what we suggest. This is it, and we'll give you a couple of different colors, but ask the manufacturer what product they sell that can be used for flooring. Also, they're going to want to know, is it going to be nailed down or is it going to be glued down? Because if it's a nail down, then what they're going to do is they're going to tell, tell you what the nail rate is and nail rate is. How often does a nail need to go in to the piece of wood to hold it in place? A lot of nail rates are eight inches, 10 inches, 12 inches, 6 inches. It varies. So you're going to have to ask what kind of product you have that I can use with radiant heat. And if that's the type, what's the nail rate? Because we need to know that because we're going to do a design for you and we need to figure out that nail rate, we need to put sleepers and we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But those are the most important things. I'm just going to ramble on here into the next one because it flows so well. And so I'd say, you're the expert in the hardwood. I don't work with hardwood an awful lot, so I'll let you take over from here. Yeah, most of the hardwood is between my two ears, so that's where the most interesting stuff is. That doesn't happen. But if you take a look at this, you kind of get an idea of the different colors here. But a general type thing. If we are talking about, we're going to be talking about quarter sun and that sort of stuff. But you know, here are the kinds of wood that. This is Forest Service now, this is what the Forest Service does in laboratory conditions. They say here are the ones that don't expand and contract a lot here. The ones that do a beach is a product you'll never you're never going to want to use. Beach expands and contracts too much. It's very, very bad choice for flooring. However, if you look at the bottom of this list, red oak is their red oak is used a lot in floor flooring, and I've actually installed radiant heat under red oak with perfect results. So you have to keep in mind this is a laboratory setting. This is where probably your manufacturer is going to say, yeah, we've had really good luck with this one or this one. We've tested it a lot and this one works well whether no matter what kind it is. So if we go into this next thing, the way the product is cut and so on is going to lead to successful installations or problematic installations. So what you want to do is you want to look for quarter sun because what courtesan wood tends to do is quarters on wood. When it expands and contracts, all wood will expand and contract. You want to stay from the ones that do it a lot and try to get it to the ones that don't quarter saw. And actually, when it expands and contracts, it actually expands upwards as opposed to laterally so you can have a floor. Maybe that's a little bit uneven when it's really, really humid because your dehumidifier quit working yesterday, but you don't have to worry about it doing this. You are going to see it go up and down as opposed to sideways. So that's where you want to go to court design. The problem with quarter sun, as against plainsong, is courtesans more expensive, because if you look at this diagram we have up here, upper left as quarter on what tends to get done, a lot is quarter and rifts on because it's less expensive. You get more yield, but you get some bigger cuts because you can see you have some pretty short cuts there in a lot of waste in quarter sun. If you look at that, there's lots of waste in there. And with quarter and riffs on, you can see that there isn't as much waste. Plainsong is something you definitely want to stay away from. Plainsong on tends to cup as it gets cup and straighten out cup and straighten out because of the way you can see, because of the way the growth rings are inside there. So you can see on this side, they kind of go up and over. There's your cup, it's going to cup this way. And if you look at the bottom, you can see how it cups this way. So you're going to have boards that are naturally going to want to cup because of the tension inside the wood and the actual the rings there, the grain. So what do you want to look for when it comes to doing floor heat? You want to use narrower widths because narrower widths will shrink and swell less than white or boards. So that's what you want to do. You also want to try to go to engineered woods. Now they're not bulletproof, but engineered woods are automatically going to start a little bit better chance of success when you're doing this. The floor that I did recently was actually a dark floor, and dark floors hide gaps even better than light colored ones. So if you do happen to get some gapping with a dark floor, you don't notice it as much as you would with a bright, light Brown floor. So we're just trying to tell you these things to kind of give you a head start on a successful installation. You want to look for beveled edges also, because a beveled edge from bored to bored already has a little bit of gap there. And if get a little bit more, you'll never, ever notice it. So there are a lot of things that you can do with your wood flooring to have a really, really successful one. So walnut cherry oak are relatively stable, cypress and bamboo. Surprisingly, bamboo is a little bit is one you want to kind of steer away from back in the day. Bamboo is really popular. You kind of want to steer away from it because it expands and contracts unless it's specifically engineered by the manufacturer. Maybe it's an engineered bamboo product. Maybe they've thought of that. Maybe they've taken care of it. Once again, it's a question that you're going to ask the manufacturer. So those are some broad overview hints on ways to have a floor, be a success and to look good, and the final determination is going to come from the manufacturer themselves sharing their experience with their product. I think that that's what it really comes down to when I try to really kind of drive this home is talking with the manufacturer, it's not ideal if you're going to be, you know, spending all this money and putting all this time and effort into, you know, adding heat to the floor or really just putting new flooring in your house at all. Whether you're heating it or not, it doesn't hurt the chat with the manufacturer and make sure that you're doing it according to what they recommend, since they do know their product best. Exactly and what you're also going to want to ask them. You might want to make a note of this. If you're watching with us is to ask them, what's the maximum temperature that I can heat this to? First of all, can I heat it? The second question is what temperature can I heat it to? And the third question you want to ask is, what's the nail rate if it's a nail down product? And the fourth question you want to ask is if I put this heat in the floor? Can I do a set back temperature? And that means comfort versus cooler when you're heating a tile floor. Normally you have it warmer when people are going to be walking on it and then cooler when people aren't. So when you're waking up to go to work, it's going to be warmer. When you go away to work, it's going to cool off. So you're not spending as much electricity money on electricity then when you get home. The programmable thermostat turns on, so it's warm when you get home and then when you go to bed, it'll then lower. Those are all setbacks. That's a setback thermometer or thermostat. So you have to ask the manufacturer, do you allow setbacks? And if you do, what is that two degrees, 10 degrees, 20 degrees, they're going to tell you whether it's allowed or not. Some flooring won't let you do a set back at all. And that's what's so good about electric floor heat is if they say we want it to be 80 to as a maximum temperature, you can take your non programmable thermostat, set it to 82 and leave it there for the entire heating season because your floor is always going to be 82. So what you'll find with the floor in the wintertime that has floor heat under it electric, you're not going to see any gasping unless you don't have the proper humidity. You're not going to see any expansion or gasping because the temperature of that floor is going to stay the same. The entire heating season. OK, so that's one thing to keep in mind. You're not overshooting and undershooting like hot water, you're setting that temperature, it's staying there, and you don't have to worry about expansion and contraction because it's always going to be the same temperature. So let's talk about our values. I know you love this subject, Lynn. I love our value. I like saying the word our value. I don't really know much about it, though, so I'm going to let you continue. Well, low. Our value means that let's heat through high. Our value means that it traps it. It won't let it. It won't let it get to the floor. So the object here is if you want to warm floor, you've just put electric floor heating in. The last thing you want to do is put something over the top of it that's going to keep the electric heat from getting to your feet. So a lot of times we'll talk to people go, OK, well, I'm going to put this in, but I'm going to put an underlayment between the wood and the self leveling. You can as long as it doesn't have an R value, you don't want to put a blanket over the heat and then have the heat never get to the flooring. So the same thing is true when it comes to what kind of wood is better that's going to get warmer. So if you can take a look here, you can see that there are different values. The number that you want is the lower, the lower the R value, the warmer your floor is going to get. Because it's going to let heat into the room, it's not going to trap it. Also, what's great about this particular slide is you can see swelling percentage and look at the difference. That's why we brought up quarter sun and plain sun because swelling is so much less on quarter sun than it is plainsong sun. I mean, you can see here it's almost double in some of these. So that's why you're going to be looking for a low value flooring that is quarter sun, and that's going to give you really good results that are going to be stable. So if you look at these numbers compared to other flooring types, we had a question supplied to us earlier. You can see where tile is 0.25. It's much lower our value less than half our value of any of these woods. Or maybe just a little bit. Maybe not hickory, but a laminate has 1.17. These are generalities. Once again, different manufacturers have different backings on them. Have different thicknesses. These are just a broad stroke of a brush here. But when it comes to what's going over the floor, you want something that are value 1 or less for Best results. All of these comply over here, but it's good to know which ones are going to be more efficient. Awesome, yeah, that's definitely I like that chart, it is a really nice, handy tool to kind of get an idea of what you're working with. I think our value can get confusing, at least for me. It gets confusing because there's so many numbers, but having it written down like that is a really nice way to think of it. So looking at some important installation tips, you want to make sure that you are not running the heating system when you're installing that glue down flooring. The glue down flooring has an adhesive that you put down, and it's going to cure too quickly if the floor heating system is on and running and warming it up. So make sure that you are not turning that system on until the installation is finished. You also want to apply any topcoat so that you're going to be putting down as soon as possible once the installation is finished. When you're going to be pairing it with for heating again, talking about moisture content, you want to make sure that the wood flooring that you're verifying that moisture content specifically, obviously, depending on where you are, is going to vary. But 7.5% tends to be about a good target to start off looking at. And again, like we mentioned earlier, looking at humidity levels, you're going to want it to be between 38 to 42% year round again, kind of varying depending on the product and the manufacturer. But that's a good rough estimate. Once the manufacturer knows where you live, they can tell you what the recommended moisture content is, because if you're in Alabama in the summertime, it's going to be a whole different number than it would be in South Dakota in the wintertime. So that's just something you want to watch out for, because that's why these numbers are not so hard and fast is completely based on where you are and the time of year that you do it. Yes so I really like this cross section here. It shows you how you would be installing temps on cable during a nailed down hardwood installation. So when you're putting it over a plywood subfloor, you can just lay it directly onto the plywood. You'll lay out your wood sleepers and that's going to be spaced based on the nail. What was it? What's the real nail rate? Thank you. And you'll space your sleepers according to the nail rate, and then you'll lay out your timezone cable, hooking it in the fixing strips that are provided to run in between the sleepers. And then you'll cover that with some self leveling cements that it's all even. And then you'll put down your nail hardwood and we're going to be going over that a little bit more in depth. Yeah, when you're talking about self leveling cement, always check the bag of the self leveling cement you bought and see if a primer is required. And if a primer is required, get the kind of primer that the bag recommends or requires. It's not a recommendation. It's a requirement. And then if that's the case, if you're using one that requires a primer, you're going to want to put that primer on the wooden floor before you lay the product down. So you want to put that on the wood first, then put the fixing strips and then put the cable over the top of those. So that's a very important thing to remember when you're working with self leveling cement. Also, the nail down hardwood, we know the nail rate, so we know how far the sleepers are apart. The sleepers about an inch and a half to two inches wide, usually around an inch and a half wide. And that's going to allow plenty of space to get that nail in, and they're going to be 3/8 of an inch or a half an inch thick. And that's what you want to have that layer of self leveling. And do you want the self leveling to be exactly level with the wood sleepers? So it's really easy. You mix yourself leveling and you use the sleepers as your gauge so you're not using a rake or anything. You're just using a trial and the edge of the sleeper as your height gauge because you need to make sure that you're nailed down. Hardwood is touching all the way across the floor, so it's not just touching the sleepers and then a hollow spot between it's actually attached to the sleepers and then completely in contact with the self leveling in between. So it's a completely flat surface. And that's going to transfer the heat much better. You do not want any gaps because gaps create airspace. Airspace creates insulation, which means it's trapping the heat in the air and not letting it go above. So it's very important that you're self leveling. Cement is completely flat with the sleepers, and it's even more important to not try to use thin set, do not try to substitute thinset for self leveling. I talk to people all the time who do it. Their floor sound hollow because they can never get it exactly flat. And if they say, well, I'll just mix it thinner, never change the consistency of the mix of thinset to make it thicker or thinner, you have to make it exactly how the bag says so. There's no choice of I'll make it runny or I'll make it thicker. You need to make it the way the instructions say. And if you make it the way instructions say, it's very difficult to get that thinset extremely flat. So that's why we're measuring our 1/2 inch and we're using self leveling to get us that contact point between the wood and actually the self leveling, which is actually warmed up by the cables. Wonderful that's a really good information. Next slide. Did I click over? There we go. It's taking its time, I always feel like maybe my screen froze when that happened, so we kind of touched on this the sleepers. You do want to make sure that they're the same thickness as a self leveling will be. So you want them to be about 3/8 of an inch. Again, determined by the nail rate or the nail spacing, which is yet again, another reason that you do want to be talking with that manufacturer and kind of planning ahead for this project. You do want to allow about a 1/4 inch gap at the end of each run so that the cable can pass through without getting turned it too tightly. You're getting damaged in some way. You'll also want to have a perimeter around the room. This way, you know that you are having an even surface throughout the flooring and you're going to be kind of even throughout. It's not going to have that self leveling, running all over the place. You know, one thing you need to tell us is which direction the wood is going to be running, because we are going to put the sleepers in the exact opposite direction. So you have this, you have something to nail into. If you cannot run this wood from left to right, the wood has to run from bottom to top to have something to nail into. So if you're putting in like we did this, the room that I did is the room. Next to it was hardwood floor already, so we needed to know which direction that hardwood was running so it could run from the kitchen into the living room and not go one direction, then change the other direction in the other room. So we had to specify which way is the wood running, and that will tell you which way the sleepers are going to be laid out in that space. So it's very, very important question for our sales rep will ask you that if you're interested in doing that, one of their jobs is to ask you, OK, I've got your dimensions now. Which direction is the wood going to be running? Yes, definitely. And it's definitely an important thing. So for whatever reason, somebody doesn't ask or if you're kind of planning this on your own, you know, make sure that you are considering how the sleepers need to run opposite of the wood is something I think people don't think about all the time. So you want to make sure that you are trimming the fixing strips to the width between the sleepers so you can just measure out exactly where the sleepers will be, how much space in between them and just cut those fixing strips down. It's very simple. They're just small little pieces of plastic on the cable itself. There is a white mark that's going to indicate the halfway points, and on the drawing that will provide, you can see an example of one here. We're actually going to show you where that should be. Is that red cable or that red dot rather? And like I said, that's going to actually be on the cable itself in person. So that way, halfway through running it, you can ensure that you are spacing it correctly and that you're going to be getting the coverage that you are originally planning on. Yeah, the problems we see with installations is some will say, well, my white mark on my cable is way off of the red mark on the plan. And usually that's because they didn't pay any attention to these numbers around the perimeter. OK if you see here, there's a little number there and there's a little number here and there's a little number here and there's one over here. This number is telling you what distance the cable fixing strips are placed from the wall, because if you put these cable fixing strips right up against the wall, you put them right up here. You're going to run out of cable way before you should. If you put the cable fixing strips over here, you're going to have way too much. So the entire calculation is based on your sleeper's, how far apart they are, how many runs are between them and the cable fixing strips, how far they are from the wall. So that's what these numbers are in green. These are the distances from the wall to the cable here, from the wall to the fixing strip here, the cable from the wall to the fixing strip. Over here, you need to follow those because if you don't, you'll either run out of cable too soon or you will have extra left over. And we all know that you cannot cut the heating cable. You cannot do that. So that's why the calculation is so important. So that's where it's so important to get one of these free installation plans. First of all, the word free and second of all, the plan lets you figure out, OK, here's what we have to do. I've got my sleepers marked here. They're the little blue dots. It tells me how many cables are going to be going between each one of these little blue dotted lines. So that's what the plan part is. So it's going to tell you what product is. And another great thing about these plans is it tells you what the wattage of the product is tells you how many amps it pulls. It'll tell you what size breaker you need. So this plan is free. And it's going to be something you can give to your electrician and go, hey, I need the right size circuit breaker for this. Here it is. It tells them right on there what breaker and what size they need, so that's why these plans are so important, because that will let you get all that information to your installer and to your electrician. So that's what's so important. So if you take a look here, you can see where the cable is taken back and forth every 10 and 1/2 feet back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Well, if we put itself leveling on that, the edges would be below the self leveling and in the middle of the floor, it would be rising to the top of the poor. Because self leveling is very dense, the cable is going to want to try to rise to the top. So that's where you're going to put. You're going to be putting masking tape every two to three feet here, and the masking tape just has to be strong enough to hold it. While the self leveling is put over the top and dries, that's all its job is to do. So every two or three feet, you're going to run some masking tape here, here, here, here and do that across every two to three feet. That'll keep your cable from rising in the poor, and you do not want that to happen. Yes, definitely. So kind of talking about a little bit more about some self leveling information, again, making sure it's poured between the wood sleepers, so it's an even surface and making sure that once you begin pouring that the cable isn't floating up. And if it is for some reason, go back and re tape it all down as much as possible doesn't tend to be much of an issue. Like Scott said, if you just do some runs of tape, but just definitely the first few pores, make sure that you are not going to have any issues in the long run. You also want to check the moisture levels in that self leveling to make sure that it is completely dry before installing your flooring. Yeah, this is actually the job that I did a little while ago and I took this picture, and I'm not the greatest photographer in the world, but in this picture, you can see that the self leveling is a little bit below the sleeper. I had to send this picture to the installer to have them come back and get the self leveling right up to the top level. Because you can see if you look real carefully, you can see where that self leveling is about an 1/8 or 16th below the level of the sleeper. So this particular area of the floor had to be kind of feathered in a little bit. So that's very, very important. So the next day I sent this email to this installer and they were back there putting a feather coat over the top to make sure that it was exactly flat. It needs to be done that way to get your heat transfer correctly. Also, make sure that the self leveling has dried to the proper amount before you start putting the hardwood over the top. You don't want to go in there when it's wet like this and start nailing wood into it. Last thing you want to do, so check the moisture level. It'll be in the instructions, follow those instructions. And that way you can make sure that you're installing it at the right time. So then we move on to actually installing that nail down hardwood. So again, making sure that the wood is running perpendicular to the sleepers, be so please super, super careful and nailing into the floor. You do not want to hit one of those heating wires, which is exactly why the sleepers are there. So just make sure whoever is working on this project is aware of where the sleepers are and how careful they need to be to make sure that they are not going to be nailing directly into one of the heating wires themselves. And then once that's all down, make sure to fill any gaps between the pieces with putty before sanding and then sealing the floor. You'll know if you put the if you put the wood in when it's too wet or when the subfloor is too wet. Because you'll put the wood in, you put the floor in, you'll come back a week later and they'll be gaps between the pieces of wood because it was too wet before, so it was expanded now after acclimating and drying out. It's going to work like this and now there'll be gaps. So that's why it's so important to get that correct level of moisture. So you don't have to come back and redo the whole floor again. That's a big, big problem. So then this is for a glued down application, another one of our famous cross sections, again putting it on the plywood subfloor that you'll lay out that time zone flex roll, you'll put down yourself leveling cement and then you're flooring adhesive and that glue down wood flooring and again, just making sure that you're not running the system when you are putting it in that flooring system or that flooring, I should say. Yeah and the one thing to remember is on a plywood subfloor, you're probably going to need to use primer. So always remember to put the primer down before you put down the temp own flex roll. The flex roll is going to try to float also to the top of the self leveling. So what you can do is you can actually staple into the mesh but never, ever staple over a wire, because if you staple over a wire, you'll be calling us in a few months saying that your floor doesn't work. So you do not want to do that because you'll create a short by compressing the wire. Never, ever staple over the wire. So what you're going to do is either staple the mesh here around the perimeter, or you're going to use spots of hot glue. And that hot glue is going to hold that whole thing down because if you don't, it's all just going to go right up to the top of the poor and you're going to have to do it all over again. So the attenzione flex role is a very similar actually the same heating product as the cable. It's just already pre attach on a mesh at 3 inch spacing. That mesh backing can be cut like you said earlier. Scott, you'll want to make sure that you are cutting it in between the loops, the open loops instead of ever cutting the actual cable itself. Well, you'll hear us say that a lot. We do like to overstate it because it's better than somebody not knowing that and because we, we still get questions every single day from people that don't. I mean, that's why we hammer on it, because if you're taking the time to watch this, we want to make sure that you go, oh, yeah, I remember them saying that. In fact, that guy with a white hair, the big guy, he said this like 12 times in a row. Well, the reason why is because we want you to go, hey, I remember that. That's why we're here. Yeah, we'd rather annoy you than have you deal with a broken floor problem. Exactly so from there, you can attach the mesh to a stair orb underlayment. If you're using an underlayment, that's a synthetic cork that we offer as an insulating barrier. And you can attach that to the stairs or using a hot glue gun or a staple gun. And this type of flooring can also be installed with timezone cables and fixing strips like the nail down. It's just going to be a little bit more labor intensive, but it also can be a bit more economical. So it comes down to kind of personal preference on which product to use for a glued down flooring. So let's take a look at this. Everybody hates it when I go backwards, but sometimes you want to go backwards to talk about stuff, and that is if you don't pay any attention to the flooring adhesive here or the glute on wood flooring. If you just do these things here, what you're going to have is you're going to have a flat subfloor that heats. That's what you're going to start with, in essence. So when you put the temp zone over it, cover it with self leveling. You're now going to have a flat surface. And the thing is, if you get tired of the glue down wood flooring or if you get tired of the lamp, I mean, you can put carpet over this. You can in the u.s., you can put laminate over it. You can even tile over the top of it by taking the old wood up and put it what it's doing is giving you a heated subfloor and then you can put on top of it whatever you want to. So that's what happens when you have the plywood, the temp sewn and the self leveling is a heated subfloor that you can go, hey, you know what? I change my mind. I'm not going to do glue down wood. I want to do a floating floor. Perfect You just lay the floating floor right on top of the self leveling, and you're done. You're ready to go. So that's what's so great and what's so flexible about this installation. The one thing I wanted to mention on this is that if you look at this product, the wire is installed wire side down. We get that question every single day. Do I install wire side up or down? Well, the thing is, you want it down because the mesh is going to be glued or stapled down if you don't and you turn it upside down with a cable. If you look at the ends, these ends here are not attached to the mesh. So what they'll do is they will go up like this if they are facing upwards, so they'll try to float to, even though it's held down where the tape is holding it down. The ends are still going to try to float to the top. So that's why it's so important to do cable side down with the mesh. So then you'll be again laying out yourself, leveling cement again at this step. You have the flexibility. This is really the step that gives you the flexibility between the time zone mats and the cables like we've kind of touched on earlier. Once it's down, once that sort of leveling is down, it's essentially a heated subfloor. So it's a really nice way to give yourself a little bit more flexibility and kind of future-proof the system. And by embedding this, like we said, any foreign can pretty much be installed over the top. Just make sure, please that before the cement or before you put down the flooring, the cement is completely dry. I do see that happen. You know, I've seen that actually happening more often. I don't know about you, Scott. I think people get very excited about, oh, this fence down, let's start putting down the flooring. And unfortunately, it's going to cause problems down the road. And another problem things people want to turn it on as soon as they get the floor. Let's turn it on and see what it feels like. Do not turn it on until the product cures. So if you're self leveling, bag says cures in 2008 days, that means do not turn your floor heat on for 28 days because if you do that, you'll wreck the integrity of the self leveling or if you're using thinset. So I'm going to go off topic here just a little bit and say that you see this picture here. When you get this floor in this condition covered with self leveling, you could even put LV t over the top of that if you wanted to right now, because that's the way we install. LPT is over 3/8 of an inch or a half an inch of self leveling. So if you have your Half inch self leveling there and you go, you know what? The wood that I wanted they discontinued. What do I do now? You can put LV t over the top of this or anything else. So that's what's so great about this. You got a very flexible type of installation. And then from there, you'll put down the flooring and the adhesive, I guess we should say the adhesive and then the flooring, so make sure that you're putting the adhesive down according to the manufacturer's instructions. Work in sections. You don't want to put the entire adhesive over the entire floor and then begin putting the wood down. Install a few rows at a time so that you're not going to end up with drying, adhesive or rushing or anything like that. And you also want to make sure that you're wiping that adhesive away from the joints on the flooring surface once you're actually finished with putting it down. And if you're doing a nail down installation, when you get to the end of the job where you can't get the Naylor in anymore, you're probably going to end up having to do the last couple of runs of wood being glued down. Anyway, that's what we had to do on this one particular floor because you can't get the Naylor in there to nail it down. So what you have to do is you have to glue that side down. So it's nailed all the way, like 90% of the floor. Then the last two runs are usually or sometimes glued down. So I like this because you may have to do this even if you're doing a nail down job. Yes, definitely. So looking at laminate flooring and kind of, you know, working with a different product. So with laminate floors, you do want to use our environ. It is the same kind of concept. It's a cut in turn roll, and it's actually the fastest of our heating systems to install. It's very, very simple. You'll lay the rules down with the cable facing down and then basically, again, same thing you'll cut and turn it according to the layout plan that's provided for you. And this is really great for any floating floor. So whether you're doing laminate floating engineered wood, this is going to be the best product for that kind of application. This product doesn't get glued to anything and nothing gets glued to it. It's purely a floating installation. It does not get embedded. It floats. So looking at some laminate wood flooring, you do want to have an underlayment between the subfloor and the environment system, environ needs a soft surface on one side if it is just laid out directly on the sublist floor and then the flooring is put down over the top because there it's floating in between. It is going to shift, it's going to have some movement. And that can eventually damage the system. So you do want to make sure that you exactly. Yes so it's just asking for trouble to not have an underlayment between the subfloor and the heating product itself. It's kind of like your hand, a pencil and then you're doing this back and forth and it eventually you would wear the pencil out by doing this, and that would be the same thing. The wire would get a braided on one side or both sides because both sides are hard. So that's why it's so important to get that there. Also, the underlayment, we're going to talk a little bit more about it here in just a minute. But here you can see the layers, and the underlayment is especially important when you're trying to go over concrete. Yes, because concrete, you never, ever lay heating cable directly on concrete, because the concrete will pull the heat down into the concrete first before it lets it go up to the floor. You need a thermal break between the heating wire and the concrete, so that's why this product is so important. So go ahead. Lynn, I'm sorry. No, that was pretty much all I needed to say is that when you're putting down that plywood, really, it's like you said on any floor, you want to lay out your stairs, orb and then you'll just directly on top of that. Put your environ and then you'll float your flooring over the top of these. So the great thing about the Sarah's orbit, it accomplishes two things three things it gives you the soft surface that the cable can kind of sink down into a little bit. Also, what it does is it provides you a way to get the non heating lead from the heating product over to the wall. That's how the thermostat sends power to this mat that's out in the floor. You have to get the power there and the cord that goes from the thermostat down the wall across the floor into the silver part doesn't heat up, but it's about a quarter of an inch thick. So what you'll need to do is you'll actually need to trench out the Sarah's orb underlayment. Like if the cord were coming out here in this corner, you would want to trench this out to let the cord travel at the same thickness of the Sarah's orb. Otherwise, it sits on top of the serves orb and then the product on top will teeter totter over the top of it. So this allows you. It gives you that soft surface. It gives you something to trench into instead of going out and getting a router and going into the floor. You don't want to do that, but what it also does is it gives you the R value differential, which means this one 4 inch of Sears orb has an R value of about 1 and 1/2. That's important when you're putting a product over the top of it, because if you have an r value of 3 and an r value of 1 and 1/2 under it, the temperature is always going to be kept down below. You need something with higher our value below to push the heat up through the lower our value above. So that's why this really, really comes in handy when you're doing this type of install. So again, talking about that in isolating underlayment a little bit more extensively, like I touched on earlier, tourism is our synthetic cork. And because it is fully synthetic, it doesn't promote any kind of mold or mildew growth. So it's a really great, especially for, you know, basements or any other area where there may eventually be water damage. You're not going to end up dealing with any kind of mold over time. It's really ideal for areas that are prone to not only moisture, but also high humidity. So again, just to kind of consider it's a great option as an underlayment, and it's really great for insulating or as a thermal break between a heat product and the concrete slab floors. think you kind of talk about that earlier, Scott. And especially for tile installations specifically, you'll adhere the serizawa, but to the subfloor for floating installations, it can just be floating over the plywood. Right so that's an important thing to keep straight. I heard that you don't need to attach stairs or, well, you heard that when we were talking about floating wood, but you didn't hear that when we were talking about tile. So we need to make sure we offer that differentiation for tile installations. The self-absorbed has to be attached to the subfloor, usually concrete with thin set, modified thinset. It needs to be attached when you're doing a floating installation. The Sarah's orb does not need to be attached. It simply floats. Floating insulation means the stairs, orb floats, the environment floats and the wood flooring over the top of it floats. It's not attached to anything. Nothing is attached to each other or vice versa. And then one of the really important parts that I think often gets overlooked is installing your floor sensor, so a floor sensor does come in each thermostat box, it's complimentary with the thermostat. But again, it is in the thermostat box. So make sure that you're not just kind of tossing the thermostat box off to the side until the end of the install. You do want to go in and grab that floor sensors that you have it and can put it down before the flooring starts being installed. So for any installation with underlayment, you'll make a small Divot, like you said, kind of trench it out for the tip of that sensor to lay flat against the floor against. So it's not going to be popping up at all. And then you do want it at least 6 to 8 inches into an open loop. So between two heating wires, never crossing over them, never touching a heating wire. You do want to just kind of stuck right into the edge of the floor there. And can you kind of tell a scattering why you don't need to go all the way to the center of the floor because there's no benefit to do that? What you want to do is you want to make sure that it's only 6 to 8 inches into one of the edges. And the most important thing is if you're installing a very expensive wood floor, they're going to tell you what the maximum temperature of that flooring can be. If you don't install a floor sensor, you'll never be able to control the floor temperature because the thermostat will turn it on and turn it off by the temperature of the air. You do not want that. That's why a nest. We're going to talk about thermostats here in a little while, but that's why you don't want to use a low voltage thermostat that doesn't have a floor sensor input like a nest. A nest cannot control the floor, heat it or the floor temperature. It can control the heater, but it bases it off of IR temperature, which means the floor could get 9,201 and whatever it can get whatever temperature it doesn't know because it doesn't have a sensor. So that's why you would never use a thermostat that doesn't have a floor sensor for hardwood, for laminate, for carpet. All of those types of LVP. All those types of flooring need to be controlled by floor temperature, and you can't do that if you forget to put the sensor in. So very, very important when you get the sensor, when you get the thermostat, take the thermostat out of the box and behind the thermostat will be a coil of Black wire with a great tip that's going to be your floor sensor. Take it out and give it to the installer and input it here. Also, you need to make sure that this is a low voltage wire. This wire cannot go in the same. We get this question all the time. Can I put this sensor wire in the same conduit as my non heating leads? And the answer to that is no. It has to be either in its own conduit or if your local code does not require low voltage wires and conduit, then it can just dangle in the wire. But it cannot go in the same pipe as the non heating leads. And also, you need to make sure that this sensor is placed somewhere where a dog bed isn't going to be laying over the top of it, or a clothes hamper over the top of it, or a box bottom bed or a chest of drawers or anything like that. And also the son you want to make sure you put the sensor where the sun doesn't hit the floor, because if the sun comes in the afternoon hits the floor and the exact same spot and that part of the floor is where the sensor is, the thermostat is going to say, oh, this floor is nice and hot. I don't need to turn on where the rest of the floor can be really cold because it's not heating the rest of the floor. So put the sensor where the sun will not hit it any time during its operating time. And then looking at actually installing the thermostat or, you know, kind of picking a thermostat, I guess, is where we should probably start. So you want to make sure that you are picking the right thermostat for your system. Some of, like we said, some of the wood flooring is going to have certain restrictions on set back temperatures, which can kind of tell you whether or not you should be getting a programmable or a non programmable thermostat, and we do have options for both. So if you have any questions on which thermostat will be best for your system, just let us know. These do have all of them have flooring protection settings so that you are not going to be going over the manufacturer temperature limits. So make sure that you are using the default floor temperature is set to 82 and you want to make sure that you are using the floor sensor to detect the temperature and not using ambient temperature. So you don't want it to be reading the temperature of the room, in the air, in the room you actually want it getting its readings from the floor sensor that you just put down that we just talked about. And again, make sure that you are choosing the temperature you want and that you're leaving it with no set back feature if needed. That's considered a manual setting on our thermostats. So, yeah, and then also make sure that you are installing in accordance with all of your local codes. Be sure to be talking to your local code authority about any restrictions they might have, right? And if don't say, you know, if you have, if you have a run in with your flooring manufacturer, don't say, well, WarmlyYours told me 82 degrees. What you need to do is you need to follow your manufacturer's requirements. If your manufacturer says, hey, you can use it up to 85 degrees, then use 85. But if they say 80 one, don't say well, WarmlyYours at 82. Warmly, yours says follow what the manufacturer says. 82 is a general ballpark figure that a lot of manufacturers use, but it may be different for the product that you buy, so go by their instructions. Not this. All right. And then, Scott, can you tell us a little bit about seasonally commissioning and decommissioning the system? These are four systems that cannot have a setback, which means they must be kept within two to three degrees per day. So you can't just go, OK, it's wintertime now. It's 60 degrees in this room, I'm going to set this thermostat on our floor to 80. You can't do that if you have a temperature limit fluctuation of two to three degrees per day. So if you have that 2 to three degrees per day that you are allowed, then what you would do is you would start with whatever temperature it is right then. Excuse me. And then you would go and program it for two degrees today. Then if so, if you're at 60 eight, you would say 70, then the next day you would go 70 two, then the next day you'd go 70 four, then 70 six, then 70 eight, then to 80, then finally to 81 you'd be going up in the increments that are being allowed by the temperature change allotment, the same thing you have to do at the end of the year. So when we're ready to turn that floor heating system off, we're not just going from 82 to 60 or 82 to 68 82 to 78 78 to 76 76 74 and work your way down. It may take you three or four days to get to that point, but that's what your manufacturer is going to want to make sure that you do. So watch out for that. Pay attention to that. And if you know that in advance, you're going to have no problems, but these are the kind of things you want to ask, and that's why we're talking about them. Definitely so some post installation tips. Obviously, once you've gone to all this trouble and done all this work, you really want your nice floors to stay nice as long as possible. So one of the top, top tips is making sure that you're not going over that temperature limit. Obviously, the manufacturer knows their product best, so we like to say trust the manufacturer to tell you how to care for their product in the best way possible. Generally, like we said, it can vary. Generally, laminate shouldn't exceed 82 and hardwood shouldn't exceed 85, but that obviously is determined by the product itself. Now one thing, Lynn, before you go any further is 85. You know the wood. I sat on the board at the National wood flooring conference, where we came up with these regulations for heating wood floors. So we started in Las Vegas and then we kind of worked as separate teams as we went through. We did this three or four years ago, so this was the end WFA that we were working with. And you know, you'd say 85 degrees and they go, Oh no, we better make it lower. Well, the thing is, if you keep the floor at 85 degrees with your thermostat, that's completely different. If the sun hits, the same spot every day. If the sun hits your floor, there's a chance that the floor is going to get warmed up by the sun to 90 or to 95 or what. You know, just depends. So the sun is actually going to affect the floor more than our floor heating ever would, but they like to make sure it's like, oh, say, let's say 80 five, so whatever number they're comfortable with. But just keep in mind that a lot of times when the sun hits the floor, it's going to be much warmer than our floor warming will ever get. So that's just something that keep in mind, because that's what you have to deal with the sun. So you have to think about that. Where will the sun hit? So I don't put my sensor there, where will the sun hit so it doesn't bleach out my floor, that sort of thing. So keep those things in mind as you're going. If you have one spot, if you've installed it a West facing a wall with a bunch of windows, you may want to put some shear shears between the sun and the floor to kind of take the heat off of that floor. So it doesn't get too hot. So think about that kind of stuff. Think about the sun doing stuff to your floor, whereas our floor heat, you know, it probably won't do anything to it, especially if you just have a set it and forget it thermostat. We've got it to 85 degrees. It's going to stay there forever. Definitely, and one of the nice things about those set it and forget it thermostats is that it really does allow for you to have the least expensive control. As long as it has a floor sensor, it does not need to be anything fancy. It just needs to be, you know, set it and forget to turn it on and let it run and be able to turn off as well. The thing you need to remember is do not get a thermostat that does not. We don't force you to buy our thermostats, right? We're not in the business. OK, here you go. You've got to buy our thermostat. The thing is, if you do buy a thermostat somewhere else, you have to get one that has a floor sensor. It's as simple as that. If if you're going to install floor heat in a product that has a limit, you have to comply with that limit. And the only way to comply with that limit is with a floor sensor. So you're not going to be the first thing when you're shopping for thermostats. You have to get one with a floor sensor. All right, and are there any questions. I know that we had one saying, can we have a copy of the presentation? So Olivia, if we can get copies of the presentation out to people, that would be awesome. All right, Olivia says. Sure thing. So it will get done. She is the best. We don't have any questions coming in from Facebook. We did have one more that was sent in ahead of time, didn't we, scott? I believe so. One of them was hardwood versus other surfaces, ranked for transmission of heat, we talked about that, we knocked that one out. Bamboo flooring similar as wood floor. Well, we've all from what we've learned today, bamboo may expand and contract a little bit more than some other choices, so maybe bamboo isn't the best choice for heating floor. But once again, you have to talk to the manufacturer of that bamboo. Maybe they're doing an engineered bamboo or something like that where it doesn't expand and contract. So just using raw data about a generic information, you may want to investigate the bamboo first before just going, hey, that's bamboo. Let's use that. Make sure that you check on it and see if it's rated to be used with radiant heat. Yes, I think if we can drive one point home today, it's please talk to the manufacturer. Make sure it's funny. The first thing I've heard about that today. Well, then you weren't paying attention. All right. So if there's no other questions, then we're going to start doing some housekeeping here. We do have another webinar coming up in July. This one is going to be on some installation tips for installing a pavers with our snow melting systems, so please join us for that. We'll be hosting it. And Scott again. And if you enjoyed today's presentation, if you have any interest in learning some more about our products, about installation, or if you just have some questions and you want to chat. Be sure to join us for our daily trainings there. Right here on crowd cast. They're also on Facebook. Last anywhere from usually about five 10 minutes, and we are happy to answer any questions you might have. And if you have any feedback, we'd love to hear it. Not too long after this ends, you'll be getting an email asking about your experience during the webinar today, so we love to hear any comments or suggestions. We just want to make sure that we're doing these for you and we want to be giving you the information you need. And, of course, if you have any questions or if you need any assistance. Reach out, however, is best. You can give us a call. You can shoot us an email or visit our website or any of our social media or our Facebook, Instagram for more information on our products. As well as just some. I think our website, especially has a lot of great installation videos, tips, blog posts. So feel free to reach out, however, is best. And that is all that we do have for you today. So thank you so much for joining us again. My name is Lynn. I am joined by Scott and until next time, please stay warm and be radiant. Everybody, thank you.